Episode 20: The Present Pastor with James Williams

What does it really mean to be present — not just busy, polished, productive, or professionally “fine”?

In this episode of The Heather Petero Show, Heather sits down with Reverend James Williams, Senior Pastor of Grace Resurrection Methodist Church and author of The Present Pastor: Step Off the Stage and Learn to Lead Like Jesus.

They talk about presence over performance, servant leadership, church culture, burnout, and why people need more than polished programs — they need relationship. They also get into koi ponds, 70s TV commercials, Captain and Tennille, and James’s bold claim that no good music happened after 1989. Heather has questions.

This episode is for pastors, leaders, teachers, parents, creatives, and anyone who needs the reminder that the people in front of us are not interruptions to the mission.

Very often, they are the mission.

Connect with James Williams:
Facebook & Instagram: @rev.jamesiv
Book: The Present Pastor
Church: Grace Resurrection Methodist Church

Transcript

Speaker 0:08

This is the Heather Petero Show where conversation means common. Hey friends, welcome back to the Heather Patero Show. I am so excited about today's episode. Today's guest is Reverend James Williams, and I have a feeling this conversation is gonna hit home for a lot of people. Not just pastors, not just church leaders, but anyone who has ever had to lead while tired, serve while stretched thin, or smile warmly while secretly thinking, Lord, if one more person asked me where the casserole dishes, I may need sanctification and a snack. James has spent more than 30 years in ministry as a lead pastor, senior pastor, and district superintendent, serving churches of different sizes and seasons. He is now the senior pastor of Grace Resurrection Methodist Church in Marietta, Georgia, a church focused on helping people follow Jesus in real everyday ways. He is also the author of The Present Pastor, Step Off the Stage and Learn to Lead Like Jesus. It's a book for pastors and church leaders who may be running on empty, caught in performance mode or trying to lead people while quietly losing touch with their own soul. But even though James wrote this book with pastors in mind, I think this message goes far beyond the pulpit. Because presence is not just a pastoral issue. It is a leadership issue. It is a marriage issue. It is a parenting issue. It is a business issue. I mean, it is a human issue. If you lead a team, teach students, run a company, serve in ministry, manage volunteers, raise children, care for aging parents, direct a choir, run a studio, or simply carry responsibility for other people. You know how easy it is to become productive, but not present. You can be in the room and still not really be there. And that is the heartbeat of this conversation. The heart of James's book is not about quitting ministry. It is about remembering what ministry was supposed to be in the first place. Not a stage, but a relationship, not performance, but presence. So today we are going to talk about what it means to be truly present, why churches and organizations can drift into acting like country clubs instead of communities, why leadership without deep relationships become hollow, and how God sometimes does his clearest work in the very seasons we did not choose. And because James told me, and I quote, I thrive on surprise questions, hit me. Well, sir, you have come to the right show. Around here, we do not threaten people with a good time, we deliver. James Williams, welcome to the Heather Patero Show. Thank you so much, Heather. It's good to be here. And um, that that casserole boost thing could hits way too close to me. For sure. Thank you. I I need I need you as my PR person. I would love that. Well, before we get into the book, before we talk about church leadership and before I confront you in Christian love about your music opinions, I want to start with your story. You spent years in the business world before ministry, and you said in your questionnaire that I sent you that as a young layperson, you thought pastoring would be a cinch coming out of business. First of all, that made me laugh out loud because anyone who has ever served in church leadership literally just spit out their coffee. Tell me about the younger version of you. What did you think pastoring was going to be? And what did real ministry teach you very quickly? Yeah, that's such a great question. And you know, the the book itself has been therapeutic for me. I rem I worked on it for about four, probably almost five years now, um, and just really started by jotting down all of the ways that I was processing a very difficult time in the life of the denomination I was serving. And and so when I was younger, to answer your question, there were there were decisions that I made that I thought, you know, I can tackle just about anything because I've overcome some of these other things, and I often did that without the help of God and in my own power. Now, looking back, I probably could not have dealt with those things without depending on God's power. But I was pretty proud of myself and what I had overcome, and and that turned into a lot of pride, and it got mixed in, Heather, with my compassion and my empathy because I I am compassionate, I am very empathetic, and I love people and I want to help people, and that's always been important to me. But I started to do a lot of things over the years in my own power, and really that all came to a head in um the where I was pastoring before I came to Georgia. And it wasn't it wasn't a bad situation, but it it also was a situation that was like a neon sign that said, you gotta do this thing differently wherever you're going next. And that's kind of what happened. Um, and it harkens all back to those early years of difficulty and my almost, almost um arrogant spirituality in those years. And and I could say more about that. But that's I I was a I was a nice guy. I had lots of friends, and again, I loved people, but I did have this side of me that thought, I can, I can do this, and if I need to do it on my own, I'm certainly capable. Well, I think church is filled with a lot of people who think they're nice people with good hearts, and at the end of the day, it's it's are we churchgoers or are we are we Christ followers? And uh I I think that that is where the crux has to come. That's where God has to meet us, and we either decide we're really doing this or we're just going through the motions, you know. So coming from the business world, what actually helped you in ministry? Because I do think there are leadership tools, people skills, and organizational instincts that can translate beautifully. Yes, I, you know, I was actually I was almost too capable on the business side of church. And as you know, being in a ministry family, there is a business side to the work of the church because we have to meet budgets and we have to make decisions about property and we have to make sure that we have the right leaders in the right places who oversee the work of the church. And it is um it is something that you can really lean into, I found, and forget the people side. And and I love what you said uh in your intro uh today because it really is about people. And even though you have to do that business side, sometimes for me, I was able to appear to be more capable than I was emotionally sometimes because I did do that business side so well. I started in smaller churches and uh I was in a couple of medium-sized churches, and then I served the largest church in my state uh in the United Methodist denomination. And so, and and in the middle of all that, I was a district superintendent where I oversaw over 100 churches during that time. And so I was really able to keep things rolling pretty easily in that way, while my spiritual life sometimes got put on the back burner. I never forgot why I was doing what I was doing, Heather. I never turned away from the Holy Spirit's help, but a lot of times I would function just outside the line of that. And and that began to bother me. And what I began to see was, yeah, it was a decision that I had made, but it also was because I was serving in a place and in a denomination that made that really easy. And so uh a lot of what I talk about in my story is how the system of the United Methodist Church really kind of set me up to say that's okay. Now, I couldn't have ever found a bishop or a district superintendent or even a pastor friend who would have said, Yeah, James, that's okay. But the fact was, our system was set up in such a way that it did make it very easy for me to shine because of my administrative abilities. I could preach, I love to preach, but administratively I was able to keep things rolling, and that made my numbers acceptable. And so a lot of the things that should have highlighted um some places where people who were in authority over me to say, wait a minute, James, now let's take a look at this, got looked over because my administrative numbers looked so good and I had the people in the pew. Yeah, you you you did organization really well, but but there was still something missing, I imagine. And and when you did finally sell out to the Lord, what did ministry, when you were really doing ministry, what did it humble right out of you? Well, in the midst of all that, I don't want to to make it seem like there wasn't good ministry happening in the middle of all that because there were there were good days, there were great times. Um, I started a second campus twice in my ministry, and we were able to reach people who either had been hurt by the church or forgotten by the church in those situations. And I always really had a real heart for the unchurched. Um I was uh coming out of the business world, it was uh it was glaring to me that um a lot of times my congregations were uh they were doing church in a way that was not really biblical. But as far as the club mentality, sometimes we were doing great. We were doing really great. And and so the sellout part for me with Jesus would come in those moments when I felt like I was really seeing changed hearts and changed lives. And I would yearn to go deeper into that, Heather. I would yearn to see that more. And a lot of times I wasn't able to see that as often as I really felt like I should have seen it because there were all the other things that that had to happen. Uh, and and it's like you you're running churches as pastors sometimes, but you're doing ministry on the side. And I believe you should be doing ministry and running a church on the side. Oh, yeah. And and sometimes that got mixed up for me. Oh, yeah. Well, people are not products and churches are not corporations, even though sometimes we sure to try to run them like one with a potluck attached, you know. Yes. You know, it it's interesting, you know, I've been in ministry a long time. My dad was a Baptist minister and my mother was a strong Christian leader. So I I've I've grown up in the church. And one thing that I've noticed is ministry now, how we do ministry now, some things are the same, but compared to 30 years ago or 40 years ago, or even just 10 years ago, things have changed. Absolutely. How we pastor, how we lead, how we minister has changed dramatically. What are you seeing from your angle? Well, what I'm seeing is especially, especially, and I have the privilege of working with your son, Seth, and he's in this generation of um individuals, and I have, and my own kids are in this generation too. What's different right now is we're seeing a generation of kids that are doing one of two things, and and and I shouldn't call them kids because they're they're adults, but they're kids to me because I'm old. But what I'm seeing is these young people are doing one of two things. They're either walking away from the church because the church is in no way meeting their needs, or they are staying in the church but calling us out and holding us accountable to be who we say we are. And and that has changed a lot because in your generation, my generation, the generation probably just above us, maybe the generation a little below us, we kind of grew up as church people, and we knew, Heather, that that churches weren't perfect, churches are full of people, pastors aren't perfect, things happen, sometimes really bad things happen, and sometimes they're just kind of things that shouldn't have happened, but we're human. And and we gave ourselves a lot of passes, I think, in in the older generations and said, you know, the church isn't perfect, but we're gonna be there. We're gonna support the church, we're gonna be there to worship God, and everything else is just kind of comes with the territory. Well, that is not the case for millennials, for generation, I would say, is it is it Z, the Gen Z right now, and then the alphas are below them. They are not in any way, or my experience with them has not been this, willing to give us a pass. We are either going to be who we say we are, and we're gonna do church like scripture says we are to do church, or they're not gonna be with us. They're gonna they're gonna either find places in community among themselves or find churches that are trying to be who they say they are. Well, and I think I'm Gen X, so I think I think my generation, our generation, did the same thing to the generation before us, too. We wanted it, I think that's a a human uh nature thing that we want it to feel real. We want to know that it's real, we want to know that these Bible stories that we've grown up on or these stories that we've always heard are true. And where's the fruit? Yes. And unfortunately, a lot of these churches, and we won't call out denominations, but uh there's no fruit. And we're just checking boxes and we're going to hear three songs in a TED talk every Sunday. And and we that is not the the bounty and abundance of the Christian life that God has called us to. Absolutely. So your book is called The Present Pastor, and the subtitle is essentially an invitation to step off the stage and learn to lead like Jesus. That title alone tells me something. It suggests that ministry can drift into performance, not always intentionally, but subtly. You you started out wanting to serve people, and before long you are managing optics, expectations, numbers, programs, platforms, personalities, and everybody's opinions. Blessed be the tie that binds, but sometimes the tie is a little tight. Why present? What does that word mean to you? Wow, okay, so and I I think my publisher will be okay with me telling this story. That was not my original title. When I was started writing this book, my title was Model Pastor, and it with no subtitle. And the the premise of the book was going to be there is the Western church model of the pastor, and then there's the biblical model of the pastor. And I was really living into the western model of pastoring churches, and so I named the book Model Pastor. Well, after it had been in editing for several months, the publisher, the head of the publishing company, but well, the my editor who was wonderful, Jessica, she's edited for many, many people that you would know. And she was so great with me and really is a is a follower of Christ, just one of the best Christians I've ever met. And she was real straightforward with me, and she was really helping me as she edited this work. She said, I think Lynn Wilson, the publisher, I think he's going to give you a call to talk to you about your title. So I thought, okay. And I knew that publishing companies do that at times. But he said, You know, James, as I'm working through your book here. I just think we need to rework this title. He said, I'm thinking, let's call this the present pastor. Step off the stage and learn to lead like Jesus. And I said, Well, okay, you're the expert here, but who am I to tell people the I'm going to teach you to lead like Jesus? And he said, Well, the whole book, you actually talk about your transformation from being the unpresent pastor to the present pastor. And that's what really this is going to speak to people. I said, you know what, you're right. And so we did. We changed that title, and and it was a good decision because I've had so much great feedback on that, Heather, because it really is. That's that was my journey. My journey was acting like sometimes I was more present than I was. Was it ever a conscious thing? It was just that I needed to get this done with this person so I could rush to the next thing or the next meeting. And and a lot of times I stayed on schedule. Sometimes I used to never be late for anything. I I thought, you know, being late for anything is terrible. You should never be late. Well, in the past couple of years, I'm late more often than I used to be. And the reason is I don't get in the kind of rush that I I used to get into. And I tell a story in the preface, and I was just talking, she's reached out to me since the book's come out. But I talk about a lady in the preference. She was in my very first church, uh, a lady who had been through so much difficulty in her life. And I was rushing out the door of the church, going to somewhere I say I deemed important. And she was coming in and wanted to ask me something. And I I was, she could tell from my body language, I didn't have time to stop and talk with her. She grabbed me by the arm and she looked me in the eye and she said, When are you going to stop running, James? You're always in a rush. Oh, wow. And she said it in a way that was not like, you know, she was she was fussing at me, or it was it was the Holy Spirit that spoke through her that day. And that has haunted me throughout my ministry, Heather. A lot of times I didn't pay attention to do anything about it, but it was always in the back of my mind. And when I started writing this book, I could hear her voice in my head, and I know it was the voice of the Holy Spirit. And so I've tried to move into really sitting with people, just sitting with them and listening to them. And sometimes I did this with an individual a couple of weeks ago that but they're going through a very difficult time right now. And we were sitting, and I've never done this in my ministry before, but we just sat in silence, so much so that this person fell asleep. That that has never happened to me. And this is a person who's going through a lot of difficulties right now. And I told Natalie, I said, I wish that had happened more, you know. And I get emotional when I talk about me cry too. Because, well, Heather, I just think of all the people that God put in my life that I just kind of moved past it really quick because I had to go work for God. I had to go do something for God. And and I finally kind of got, you know, James, this is the word for God. Everything else is like, that's just a job description. I I I said this in an interview I did a couple of weeks ago about the book. Um, I was in the United Methodist Church, and I love the United Methodist Church. I am independent now. I've disaffiliated, I've led a church through disaffiliation, the largest church in the state, which has made me not very popular. Um, but I I have learned a lot from leaving that denomination that I love, that raised me, that that I still love and and pray for every day, because I think that there's a lot of good stuff about the United Methodist Church and the new denomination too, the the global Methodist, both of those denominations. Um, but I said to in this interview, because a lot of Methodists will be um listening to this interview that I did, I said, you know, if you ever get a chance, pull out the book of discipline in the United Methodist Church and go to about the middle of the book, and you will see a job description for a United Methodist elder. And it is three pages long and absolutely ludicrous. One person could never ever fill that job description. It is impossible. To feel. And what it created, and I said in the interview, I sure tried. I tried to meet that job description. I mean, I couldn't have worked harder to try to meet it. And a lot of my colleagues did too, and it just about killed them. Um, and did probably in some ways for some of them. And I think that that's not just the case, though, in denominations. That's the case for pastors in general. If you think about all the things that you have to be, you have to be a counselor, a psychologist, a financial planner, you have to have qualities of a CEO. You as a as a pastor, you have to be able to write articles for uh, you know, pages-long articles every week. I used to kid my kids when they were young and in school, they would complain to me about having to write term paper. And I'd say, listen, I write term paper every week. I do it every single week when I'd write a sermon. And and so all of that just begins to become the focus. And I learned that I had stopped walking slowly through the crowd, Heather. And what I really understood was that no one ever really made a huge impact for Jesus who couldn't walk slowly through the crowd. And Jesus walked slowly through the crowd. Absolutely. So was there a chapter that felt especially personal or costly to write? Yeah. So um there's a chapter, I can't remember what number it is, but it's called Unraveling. That chapter is called Unraveling. And and in it, I talk about um having to make a decision to be able to plan and pray about what's next. When I was first appointed to um the last uh United Methodist church I was uh serving, I thought that I would probably retire there. You know, I would stay there and just retire. And um, and you know, uh people said to me, you know, you you the next thing for you is to run for bishop, you know, you need to run for bishop. And and I did not want to do that. I did not want to go back into church administration. I had been there, done that, did a good job with it, but I didn't enjoy it. Um I want I'm a preacher. I want to preach. And uh I am, I I want to I want to walk with people. And and so I thought, okay, I can do this here, and I'll just remain here until I retire. And in about my fifth year there, um I I used I used to kind of sit and think, all right, God, what are you doing? I know I'm not burned out. I'm still excited about ministry. I look forward to getting out of bed every day, but something doesn't feel right. It feels like you want me to do something different, but I don't know what it is. And then, as you are very familiar with, the Global Methodist Church began to grow. And so I was talking with people about that, maybe jumping into the new denomination. And so all these things were out there, but nothing felt right. And so I was stressed to the max because not only had I led a very large church through disaffiliation and the pandemic, but uh we had started a second campus in that time, and it was a busy, busy time, and I was asked to go to India. And I remember say and I said yes because I was going there to work with a mission that was very close to my heart that I loved. I loved the work that they were doing. And in the middle of all that, after I said yes and I got all my ducks in a row to leave the country, I remember looking at Natalie one night at home and I said, I do not need to be going to India. There is so much going on right here. I though this is the dumbest thing I've ever done. I shouldn't be leaving the country right now. But I'd made a I had made a promise to go. And and the pr there was a person in my church who also was involved very heavily in missions. Her name was Leslie and her husband, Robert, and I had such great respect for them, and I couldn't tell them I couldn't go. So I went. I got on a plane in Lexington, Kentucky, Heather, and the world as I looked around me was in black and white. It was just like, okay, God, what are you doing right now? And all the way on that 17-hour flight, I actually worked on a vision statement that I was going to give to the church when I got back. So that's what I did. And I did, and that's another long story that didn't include in the book. But I got there, and when I walked off that plane, all the colors came back. It was like, do you know the Wizard of Oz where she walks out of the house? She's in black and white, but she walks into Oz and everything's in color. That's what it was like. Yet it smelled awful. It smelled like a combination, I say this in the book, a body odor, turmeric, cumin, you know, just uh exhaust the smog in New Delhi, India is the worst, almost the worst in the world. Um, it's it you have to wear a mask. A lot of people just wear a mask all the time, and there's all the smog's just terrible there. Yet I felt for the first time that I was in the will of God like never before. And I spent two weeks in the worst slums of New Delhi, India. Uh, New Delhi is the third largest city in the world, and the slums there are the worst slums in the world. And I worked side by side with people who were in abject poverty, who had sewage running down their front, front, the front of their homes, children playing all over the place, happy as they can be. I mean, the people who were so hospitable to me. They wanted to give me everything that they had, and they had nothing. And and I just thought, okay, you know, these are people who have no bishop, they have no heavy pension, they have no freedom of religion in many ways, they have none of the things we have, and yet they are so content. And the Christians there love the Lord like Christians I've never seen before. I mean, they love Jesus. And uh, I was just like, okay, all right, God. And I journaled every night I was there. My associate pastor in the church in in Lexington where I was, his name is Derek. Derek was about 15 years younger than I was, or I am, and he had decided that he was going to go and be in the GMC, and he knew that I wasn't leading our church in that direction. So he was offered uh a senior pastor job, which he had all the great qualities that he could be in North Carolina. So he left. And he, you know, I say in the book, I lost not I didn't lose an associate pastor, I lost a friend when Derek left. But I he went with my blessing because that was his call. But before he left, he gave me this little, he he used to wear these moleskin journals out. He loved, you know, journaling. And so before he left, he gave me a brand new moleskin journal, and I took it to India with me, and I journaled the whole time I was there. And in that journal, um, I wrote in the front of that while I was in India, and this was a quote that I had used so often in sermons over the years, but I wrote in the front of that journal a quote by Billy Graham, and it was this it's God's job to judge, it's the Holy Spirit's job to convict, it's my job to love. And and in India, that little flat I was in, that little room I was in one night, it was like God said, You need to start living by this. Stop trying to fix people and fix churches. Just serve me, just serve me. And so I I got back to Lexington knowing that my time was short there. But I couldn't, you know how it is in the United Methodists or the Methodist system. You know, you're it's a very secretive thing sometimes. That that was one of my issues with it, is it you know, everything's a secret, you can't tell anybody anything. And so I couldn't really talk to anybody about it. Uh, Natalie knew I was struggling with it. Uh I had a really good friend who knew. But I I knew that I was I was not going to be there much longer. And and I was at odds with some lay people and some staff at the time. And so all of that was a perfect storm when I got back from India, and some things took place that led to my departure. And uh I remember walking into a friend of mine's office the day I resigned who knew how I'd been struggling for the past two years. And he said, he looked at me and I mean I was just kind of devastated. I just said, you know, I resigned. And he looked at me and he said, Congratulations. And I thought, from God's mouth to my ears, it was like God saying, Yeah, you did, and it doesn't feel great, but it's gonna be okay. Just trust me. And so Natalie and I took some time to just not do anything. We didn't return phone calls. I mean, well, our people called us, they sent us gifts, they said, I mean, that's a whole story. I mean, it was unbelievable what happened when we left. But I didn't return phone calls, I didn't talk to anybody. I just wanted to sit with Natalie. Um, I reached out to an organization called Um Care for Pastors, and it's an organization that helps pastors who are in transition and especially helps pastors who feel kind of beat up by their congregations. Um, and they were very helpful at the time. And then someone that you really ought to um interview at some point, Mike Courtney, is a dear friend of mine in Nashville. His sister actually is Shonda Pierce, who's a Christian comedian. And uh Mike and I are dear, dear friends. We meet, we meet every week, we meet every Thursday by Zoom. And and he said to me, he said, James, you are going through some things that you watched other pastors go through, and it feels foreign to you because you never had to go through it. But he said, I want you never to forget how you feel right now, because so many pastors deal with this every single day. And and Mike is just a guy that I listen to. Mike and Shonda grew up in a pastor's home, and their father was um a very unhealthy man and really uh was very destructive. And and but they have decided to give their whole life to lifting pastors up, and they both started a ministry together in Nashville called Branches. And they started for pastors, but now they see thousands of clients. They've got a whole uh staff of counselors there. But he and he and Shonda feel very strongly about helping pastors, and and so that was what happened to me for the first time. I didn't know what I was gonna do. I was always the guy, I knew exactly where I was headed next. I had no clue what was gonna happen next. And that's where I that's where I was back in October, well, really June of 2024, 24. So do you think if you had not gone to India, do you think it would have turned out differently? Well, I don't know. I don't know because it it yeah, that's a great question. Because I was getting very short with with staff. I was getting very impatient, and and I where and I used it used to be that I could hide that really well. I was getting very impatient with some people in lay leadership, and so um I think everybody kind of knew that that that that something was going on with me. Some I think some of them thought he might he's having a mental breakdown or something, maybe, but but I wasn't. I was very much aware of what I was doing and what was going on, but it and it, but I and I was I was making some bad decisions. I really was. Not decisions that I had had really been careful not to make early in my ministry, but it was almost like you get to a point sometimes, just like, whatever, you know, I'm just I'm tired of fighting. I'm tired of having to trudge my way through ministry. You know, I just want to love people, I want to preach the gospel, and and you know, I'd kind of gotten to that point where I was just like, you know, I'm I'm kind of done, which that had never happened to me before. And again, I I thought, well, am I burned out? I wasn't burned out, but I was I my direction was was very, very unclear for the first time in my life. And so I that's a hard question to answer. I think, I think I may have still left that church for sure had I not gone to India. I think I can say that with great certainty. Um, but I don't think I would probably be where I am sitting with you right now had I not gone to India. And that's a whole long story that you don't have time to hear. Well, you know, I my mother was an undercover missionary in China. She had gone to teach English uh to um professors at a university in in China. But my mother was always very mission-driven. But she said once you experience places like India and China and you see how Christians in other parts of the world do church, for lack of a better word. When you come home, you're different. You don't want to do church like we do it. And that goes into this next part of you said in your book that churches are mostly operated like country clubs. You know, that's a sentence with teeth. And I think if more lay people, more the average churchgoer experienced what you experienced in India or what my mother experienced in China, or even what my husband and I experienced in uh Guatemala when we went on mission there, and and how people are, especially in China, having to covertly meet because they're government-run churches. Yes. You your relationship with the Lord, your walk with with God in your church community would not be a country club. That's right. So it unpack that for me. What does a country club church look like on a Sunday morning? I mean, it let's say a pastor's listening, what are the tells that you can give them so they know? So, you know, I I I've said that in sermons a couple of times over the years, um, not where I'm now, but but I have said it in other places, and it's upset people because um I've mainly served churches where there were a lot of affluent people in the congregation. They were members of country clubs, and I always say that you know, Natalie and I have been members of country clubs at times over the years. There's nothing wrong with that. But country clubs are places of community, but they're also what I call places of limited community. There's a certain type of interaction you have in a civic club or a country club or a fraternity or a sorority or any number of places where you can be in community with people. Um, but the the difference in churches is that it is a community that is spiritual and uh looks nothing really or should look nothing really like we can get in the world. In the book of Acts, I tell people all the time, you know, people and you've heard you've heard sermons on stewardship, and I've had people say, Well, you know, I don't believe in I don't believe in tithing because you know that's an old testament thing. I I'm I'm a New Testament Christian, so you know, and I said, Well, that's great because in the Old Testament, yeah, the tithe was that was the standard, but in the New Testament, they gave away everything. So yeah, I'm glad you're a New Testament Christian. And and so, of course, people's eyes widen when you say that to them. But it's true, it's true. They they lived with one another, they they bore one another's burdens, they they got people out of debt. It was they paid their bills, yeah, they paid their other people's bills, and and they lived and walked with people, and they didn't walk away because of conflict, and they didn't have to meet a certain set of standards like you do in the world in many communities. It was it was uh Jesus left a church that was supposed to hold hands when you disagree, to walk with one another in love, even when you don't agree with one another, even when you're mad at each other, um, to and to help one another in times of of sorrow, in times of hardship. And and I longed for that. I longed for it. And yes, so many of our churches function with this set of unspoken rules that say you either know the handshake or you don't. And if you know, if you don't know the handshake, maybe you want to go find another place because here we we are dedicated to our handshake. And and I don't think people set out to do that in churches at all. It's just human nature. Our nature is such that we kind of pay attention to the to what the crowd thinks, and we don't want to stand alone, we don't want to be outside that circle, so we fight to stay in that circle. And sometimes we do things that I think aren't scriptural in order to stay in the circle. And and that's what I mean by that. And churches are so ripe for that because there are a number of people, and you can blame God for anything. You know, I said in when I was talking with the folks that I'm working with now in Georgia, you know, I had not interviewed for a job in 30 years. I had a I had what's called a guaranteed appointment. You know, if I got in a mess at one church, the bishop would send me to another one. I didn't have to worry. I always had a job. And this time I had to, I had to get my own job. And and I was I sat in front of 11 people who interviewed me. And and I said to them, and and these were people who had been hurt by the church, hurt by the system. And and I said, you know, I want to say something up front to you all, and I may not get the job because of this, and that's okay. But I said, I want you to know that the things that hurt you in a situation that you were in and the reason this whole church started that you're in now, I was a part of that in many ways. And it wasn't personal. I said it wasn't personal, it was business. I I I learned to make decisions in a in the system and blame it on God. And and Heather, I I think sometimes, how does the average person in the pew argue with that? You know, I've got a seminary degree, I have a I have a master's degree in biblical studies. I I can I can make just about anything God's God's will. It wasn't true at all. As a matter of fact, God's will is usually in the minority. And and and so I just really feel like that if we can start churches, what I call Acts 29 churches, and people get confused when I say that because there are only 28 chapters in Acts. There's not an Acts 29, and they say, Well, there's not one. I say, Yeah, you're Acts 29. You're a Christian, we're Acts 29. Our church should be Acts 29. We're living out what the Holy Spirit brought on all those good people in the beginning of Acts. And if you do that, there's no way you're gonna function like a country club. You just aren't because things will get hard, they'll get scary sometimes, but you will be fulfilled in a beautiful way because the power of the Holy Spirit will be there and will go before you. And that's the way I'm trying to lead right now, in some ways, for the first time in my ministry. Wow. Well, sadly, a lot of a lot of churches are in that spot though, and and and we're seeing a lot of decline in in mainline denominations for sure. You know, one of the things that I'm seeing a lot, because I'm a worship consultant, and part of what I do is is help churches get back on track and and fight the mission drift, if you will. You'll never be without a job. I know, right? And and some churches don't even know they need help yet. But I think we're dealing with people who are still wanting to preserve the building. And um how do you not throw the baby out with the bath water, you know, honor the long-term faithful people without letting uh nostalgia lead the organization? Because, you know, there's a difference between honoring the past and handing it the steering wheel, right? Yeah. You know, one of the um nights leading up to my last day in my appointment in Kentucky, um, I found myself one night all alone in that building. It was about 130,000 square feet, that building that I was sitting in by myself that night. I'd been there for years as their pastor, Heather, and still had not been in parts of that building. I and so that night, I was in my office alone, I was praying, I was actually working on a sermon. I never told the story until I wrote the book. Um I got up and I walked to every single space in that building, even the furnace rooms in the basement. I walked into every bathroom, I walked in we had two gyms in that place, I walked into the bathrooms in the gym, I walked into the kids' areas, we had a school there, I walked in, I had a master key so I could get in any r any door. And so I walked into all of those rooms in the school. Um, I walked in what we called the music suite, which which was right up under the very beautiful, large sanctuary. We had the largest uh pipe organ in the state of Kentucky in that church. And and for the first time, just a few days before my resignation, and I prayed in every single space. And I thanked God for all that He had allowed me to do there, but also to learn there. And I prayed for the people and I prayed for that community. And I had no idea what was coming next, but I knew that my time was up. And and I just and I said so I went to the altar and I knelt at the altar and I began to pray. And I just had prayed over, oh gosh, we had just two weeks before lost a young high school student at a graduation party. He drowned in a lake at a graduation party. Um, that same altar, I knelt there and I prayed for that church. And I said, God, I'm tired of doing this in a way that I keep my face covered. I want to uncover my face. I want to take off the mask, and whatever you have for me next, I'm open to it. And all my life, if I ever felt like I was not going uh to be able to stay at a church, Heather, I knew what to do to kind of fight to stay. And and I knew how to make corrections so I could stay. And they wouldn't tell the SPRC that they didn't want me anymore. And I was at that point. I was at that point in that church, that last place I served in Kentucky, and for the first time I I said, I'm not gonna fight. Whatever's next is whatever's next. And I could and I could have fought, but I just I didn't. And I knew it was God. And and and Natalie knew something was up because she knew what I could fight and I could probably stay. Um, but I knew God wanted me to give up everything. And I mean, I didn't know what I was gonna do about money, about bills. I'm 56 years old. I had a kid in college and a private college. Um, you know, it was it was it was crazy. But we just said we're gonna sit here, and we did. And so that was that was the biggest piece that I that I learned, I think, in that. Where God was like, you know, you you're gonna listen to me this time or else. All right. And that was really the first time I'd ever felt that. Right. Well, you know, it sounds like you did you've done a lot of um connecting not only with God and building your relationship there, but you know, it's all about people at the end of the day. You know, we want to kind of expand the lane a little bit here. A lot of business leaders listening may hear the word pastor and think, well, that's not my world. Yeah. But when you talk about people needing deep relationships before real impact happens, that sounds like a very healthy workplace, a very creative team, uh, family business, every classroom, every volunteer organization. What would we say to business leaders who are trying to lead people well, but they haven't been trained to prioritize results over relationships? The first thing I'd say is you are more important than the pastor if you're in a church. You are you are who God is calling to do the work of ministry. What a lot of lay people don't even know, Heather, is that the Bible teaches that the pastor's job is to equip the saints for the work of ministry. And yet the model in in Western society for churches is not only do we do the majority of the ministering as pastors, but we hire a staff to do the rest of it that we can't get done instead of equipping the lay people in the pews to do the work of ministry. And that is exactly where um lay people and business people can, wherever they are, begin to demand demand. And and I'm I'm telling you, I I I know some pastors that would get really nervous with me saying this, but I think as lay people, you should demand that your pastor stay in the role of equipping the saints and that organization or that church, wherever you are, should say, we're going to work together to use the gifts that God's put here. We're going to do the ministry of the church. And I will I'll tell you, when it happens, the church will grow. It will grow and you won't be able to do anything about it. When when pastors are um are supportive of pastor-centered churches and staff-centered churches and staff-led churches, the growth is stymied. And a lot of times, if we get to that ceiling and it stops growing, maybe we have so many people we think that we're being successful because we have so many people. And as a district superintendent, I can tell you I found that was not the case. Um, some of my most vital churches were small churches. The the churches that didn't have a whole lot of fruit were the large churches, but they had the money and the staff and they could cover that up. And and so you said that in the beginning of our conversation today. That fruitless ministry needs to be fixed, and that's a problem. You don't need to fix people. People are people, and people, and and see, I spent a lot of time trying to fix people when I really should be keeping my eye on the fruitfulness of the congregation. That's right. And and that's another thing that I came away with. And and if you're a layperson, and and this book is not just for pastors, it started out to be just for pastors and church leaders, but in the middle of um all of the editing that that was being done on this book, the the publisher said, We want you to write two more chapters. We want you to write a chapter that are practical steps for pastors that they can take to be more present. And we want you to write the very last chapter for lay people and saying to them, this is how you can help your pastor be a present pastor. And I named that chapter, and I I didn't think that they were going to let me name that that last chapter, but they let me name it. And the the that last chapter is you are your pastor's keeper. And and it is it is the the job of the laity and church leadership to come around that pastor and support that pastor, not not criticize every move they make, not to gossip about that pastor because that's a real problem in churches, not to tell everybody else what you don't like about that pastor, to come around that pastor and lift up their arms and let God do the work that needs to happen as far as transformation. But this is the way you help your pastor become a present pastor and not a CEO because we treat pastors like CEOs, and that is not going to be blessed by God, that model. Sure. Well, it's also about creating healthy church culture, and I think part of that could be accountability and mentorship is a part of that. You have written about that. And one day one idea, I love, is that a mentor is not necessarily your best friend. A best friend loves you as you are, a mentor loves you too much to let you stay that way, which is beautiful and also rude at the same time. But growth is wonderful until someone starts pointing out the parts that need to grow. You know, unmet expectations always bring frustration. Yes. And so one of those things that we talk about in the church, and we're not going to solve all the church problems today. I mean, I mean, I mean, we could you've said some. We can make a lot of money if we could. Well, and and you you've dropped some great nuggets of wisdom. And and I think, you know, it I just have too much that I would just love, we don't have enough time to sit here and and and I would love to just pick your brain. But at the end of the day, you know, healthy culture, yes, um, living out the fruits of the Holy Spirit. And then pastors also being accountable to mentors is very important. So who have been some of the mentors who have shaped you? Yeah, well, I a mentor that I've had limited, very limited contact with, but has affected my ministry in so many ways over the years, but really in the past few years is a guy named John Maxwell. And he's been a big help to me in some of his writings and some things I've read of his over the years. But um actually there are two bishops that have been uh key in my life, Lindsay Davis, who used to be bishop of the North Georgia Conference. I actually served on his cabinet when he was in Kentucky, and then one of my one of my dearest friends in the world, but also a mentor to me, is a guy named Al Gwyn, who was also a bishop and uh from Kentucky. And uh he and I, he's been my bishops uh bishop since I was 20, 25, 26 years old, and he's one of the people that I dedicate the book to. And and what those two guys taught me, Heather, was that you can, you can't, and they try that it's not that they didn't try to get it into me. I didn't know I was uh I didn't always listen, but they really tried to teach me that I was not the ministry. You know, I went through a lot of years thinking I was the ministry. I am not the ministry. I'm a minister. I'm not the ministry. And so many pastors are allowed to believe that they are the ministry. And and I remember um Al Gwen telling me one time, James, people have to know that you care about them. Acting like you, I'll never forget him saying to me one time, acting like you care about people is really different from really caring about people because people know if you really care about them. And again, I'll go back to something I said earlier. Um, those mentors taught me to walk slowly through the crowd. And I didn't always listen. I didn't always listen. But when I had that kind of twist that did happen, I began to see and think, why didn't I, why didn't I do this earlier? And I guess that's the story of life as you get older in many ways. Um, but once I started really making people primary and not go, I'm a goal setter. And I've met a lot of my goals over the years that I've set. Um, I'm a visionary leader, so I I had I I'd get trained on something, and I was like, nothing can get in my way because we got to do this. And and sometimes it's okay to put the goals and the vision on the shelf so that you can be with the person that God's put in front of you as a pastor. And it made me a really great um employee in business, those traits. But in churches, it can be used by God, but you have to really know what you're doing with it. Um, you have to be able to spread out what needs to be done. You have to look for gifts in people and allow them to use their gifts. The best, as you know, I'm sure the best example is Jethro and Moses. You know, Moses' father-in-law, Jethro, was a mentor to him. And he looked at him and he said, Moses, you're crazy. You're trying to do all the work. You got to let these people help you because Moses was trying to do everything on his own. And Jethro said, You're gonna kill yourself. He said, What are you doing? You've got to let these people help you. And when Moses got that, he gets hooked up with Joshua and Caleb, and and and they, you know, and and you know really more about them in some ways than you do about Moses sometimes, because those guys, he he put them to work. And and I think there were probably a lot of people Moses put to work that we don't know their names. And and and then I once I got that, I wanted to be Joshua and Caleb. And and sometimes I wanted to be them even too much, you know. And what I learned over the past, especially past three to four years, Heather, is I need to be James. I need to be James that God had a plan for since before I was even conceived in my mother's womb, the Bible tells me. And if I'll just be James and allow God to use me instead of me trying to use God, then I will see changed lives for and and the kingdom built. And that's my goal. Yeah. Well, and I think it's important, not uh going back to the mentoring thing, is to be mentored, but to also s give mentor others and share and pass that that generational wisdom down as well. Well, let's go back talking about the younger generation for a minute. You know, a lot of churches say they want young people, but they what they actually mean is we want young people to come love everything exactly the way that we already do it. Let's go, which is adorable and also not a strategy. But what what you know, we talked about what young people are seeing now. Um, but more than that, what are they asking older adults to take seriously? And how can churches become places where young people can wrestle honestly without being treated like a problem to manage? I think I think these younger generations right now are asking for two primary things one community and two discipleship. And it doesn't matter which comes first, but usually community is going to come first before discipleship. And and that's also two things that I kind of let, I knew they were important. Had you been having a conversation with me, I would say, well, yeah, community and discipleship, of course. But a lot of times we we let the artificial community and we let the artificial discipleship take the lead. And what I mean by that is we have a lot of manufactured harmony in the church. We we've set up churches where no one can get their toes stepped on, no one can get their feelings hurt. Um, you know, that we got to just make sure everybody's happy. And that is not a place where the Holy Spirit can thrive or make a difference. If you are really in true community with one another, there are going to be conflicts. Healthy conflict management is what's key there, and biblical conflict management. And if you do that and keep that manufactured harmony as primary, you're going to lose people that desperately need Jesus and need to be there. Because what happens is I think people out in the workforce, they're like, you know, we deal with these weird political messes in the workplace. Why do I want to come to church and deal with that? I come to church to stay to get out of that and to be recharged so I can go back and deal with these crazy things that we deal with in the world. But yet sometimes the world is worse than the business world as far as conflict is concerned. And so I think young people want those two things, real community, true community, where you're truly with and doing life together. And sometimes I don't like that term, doing life. I think it's overused, but I get it. And I think a lot of people listening today will probably understand what I mean by that. When we do life together, we're walking with one another and in spite of the differences that we have. And we live in a world right now where it says, well, if you think differently than I do, then you must hate me. We can't be friends. That is that is a tool of the enemy because true community, you will have people who don't think like you think, but yet God can use the giftedness that He's placed in all of us to build one another up. And I tell people, in your relationships, take the meat and spit out the bones. Don't worry about the bones. Just take the meat, take the good things about relationships and walk with one another and love one another and be there for one another. And then the next thing is discipleship, because if we do not teach people scripture, then none of nothing else matters. I mean, that's why we're here. We're here to teach people not only about scripture to help them with their knowledge, but knowledge without teaching them how to live it out is also not good. So uh discipleship is so key. And that's something that in the current church that I'm serving, Grace Resurrection, we're really working on right now. Two things community and our small group ministry is beginning to really thrive. And it's been great for a while, but it's beginning to really people are seeing, okay, this is what we're doing here. We're not just starting a church, we're actually getting to know each other and we're getting we love each other. And then the discipleship piece. And one of the things uh and it for people in ministry, and even lay people who are listening today, one of the best discipleship processes that I have come across is alpha. And so look that up, you can Google it, and it's really great because it not only teaches people scripture, especially, and it's really good for unchurched people too, because they're very sensitive to the unchurched and the seekers out there. Um, but but you need to learn the scriptures, but you also can't stop there. You have to teach people to walk it out and show them what it means for their life. I think young people right now are leading the way on that. And I think it's beautiful. That's awesome. So, for someone listening who may not share your faith, but it resonates with this idea of presence, servant leadership, healthier culture, and seeing people well, what wisdom from the way of Jesus do you think even a non-religious leader could learn from? Well, I think Jesus is the model. Jesus is the model. And Jesus, not only, like I said earlier, walked slowly through the crowd, but he looked people in the eye when they were both doing some really great things and when they were doing some really bad things. And he loved John, he loved Peter in spite of him. He loved the woman at the well, in spite. I mean, he and and sometimes, Heather, we really think that Jesus was this kind of milk toast, gentle lamb kind of guy. And he wasn't. I mean, he he was very, very healthy in the way he dealt with people. He called out truth, but he did it in love, and he did it in a way that made you know that he this is a guy that's gonna die for you at some point. But he also was very straightforward with people. You know, the woman at the well, he just said, Yeah, you know, go get your husband. Well, I don't have a husband. Well, yeah, you don't have a husband. You had five, and the one you're living with now is not even your husband. I mean, he didn't, I mean, this society would say, Well, that was rude. I mean, how dare he? No, he loved her enough to say that to her, which is why she ran back into town and said, Come and see a man. So, so that's what I want to to do in the remainder of my ministry. I want to teach people that that the leadership that Jesus teaches us is the only model that we have to have. You know, I it's weird that I've written a book on this because I would say you don't really need a book to do this. The the one book you can use is is the Bible. And it I I took a year and studied uh the leadership of Jesus. I read a lot of stuff that was written about that. I dug on my own. I watched his interactions throughout the New Testament, the Gospels, and he was he was all in. I mean, he was all in, and he didn't get he didn't get in a hurry. I mean, Mary and Martha said they were mad at him. You know, our brother wouldn't have died if he'd just gotten on the road a little earlier. And and he, but Jesus did, he took his time. He took his time, and he's always on time, and he didn't worry about the goals, he didn't worry about the vision. What he wanted to do was show people they were loved, that they were loved, that his father was not a guy with a big hammer waiting to hit them over the head like they had been taught, that his father was a uh a God of grace and love and mercy who was just and who is truthful, but at the end of the day wants to put his arm around you and walk with you. And and I think if we can lead like that in our churches, we won't be able to hold them. I think the fire marshal will shut us down. There'll be so many people that show up. Yeah, you know, one media group that I think has done and portrayed that really well is the chosen. Oh my, yeah. Yeah. I just I I'm a lifelong Christian. I mean, I grew up in a Christian home and it it's it's impacted me in a way that that I think has been very wonderful to see. And and you're right, even how they portray him, he he took time for people. Yes, he did. And it was just pretty still does. Oh, yeah, still does. That's right. So, James, I want people to know you not as just pastor and author, but as a person. You said you love uh Coley, the finished Coley, reading and then travel. I need to pause here because Coley is wonderfully specific. This is not like I like animals. This is not like I like nature. Coley, you know, that a man that is a man with either serenity or an extremely expensive pond situation. Tell me about the koi. How did that become one of your things? Oh, and you know, people are so surprised when I say that to them now. And my mother-in-law, um, she is from South Carolina, and and my father-in-law and my brother-in-law died very suddenly close to each other. And so um sh my mother-in-law was kind of left uh in this big house that sh and she she didn't know what to do. So we said, well, you know, we're moving to Georgia if you want to come with us. So she did. She she actually has an apartment underneath the house that we bought, and and that's where she is, and she can look out her window and see my koi pond and see me out there. And she said to me the other day, I really just love seeing you sit out at that pond because my mother-in-law is like a mother to me. I didn't grow up in church and I had a very tragic you know situation with my mother, um, which is another story. But she she knows she knows uh young James, and she she knows how I didn't take the time I needed, and she knows how it affected my family too. She's she's a dear I I dedicate, she's one of the people I dedicated the book to, my mother-in-law, because she really is like my mother too. And she says, I love see seeing you out there because she knows that I just didn't take that kind of time in early in life. But yes, I do have a koi pond, and uh I have spent way too much money on trying to keep the water clear, which is a constant battle. But it's you know what I find is I I said to a friend of mine one time, I said, you know what? I spend every night with a group of friends, and and I'll admit it's a transactional relationship, but it gives me a lot of peace. And it's the koy. When I feed them, they all come up to greet me. And and I know why they're coming because I'm the guy with the food, but it is just very peaceful to me. And I and I do have a budget, I haven't gone overboard with it, but it is not a it's not a cheap hobby. So do you name them? Please tell me there's at least one Old Testament prophet in that pond. No, I have not named them. Uh, and people other people have asked me that. And um, I had two. Natal Natalie's cousin is um uh he worked for um at the FBI in the Atlanta Bureau. They live in Noonan, but they have three boys, and two of them are elementary age, and they come over and they all they love it. You know, they've all they've asked me, well, you know, what are their names? And I'd say, you name them, you know, you can name them there. We wouldn't know because so many of them look the same, so you wouldn't know who you're naming. But yeah, it's it's fun. And and I do and I love I've always loved to read. I mean, I I read too much, and now the iPad was the worst thing ever to happen to me because I can walk around with 2,000 books in my under my arm. But yeah, I'd love I love my koi, and I'm trying to to I don't know as much as I need to know about it, but I am a new member of the Atlanta koi clubs. Oh, wow, that's a thing. Okay, that's like my son being a member of the Atlanta typewriter club. I mean, it's like it's that a thing, you know? That's great. Well, you also said that you love 70s TV shows and commercials, and I have to tell you, this is where I knew we could have some fun. Yeah. What is it about 70s TV and commercials that you love so much? Gosh, you know, well, I didn't grow up in church, and I was uh I when I became a teenager, I we moved back near my grandparents, and so I started going to their church uh for a while, and especially the youth group there when I was in high school um before I went off to college. But we lived in every state in the southeast, you know, before as I was growing up, except Louisiana, that's the only place. And uh Randy Michler, who is our pastor emeritus at at Grace Resurrection, he played for the University of Georgia. And I told him that one time. I said, I've lived in every southeastern state except Louisiana. He said, Well, you didn't you didn't you didn't miss anything because you know he didn't like LSU. But our but the interesting thing is my associate pastor is a graduate of LSU. And and so I I didn't grow up in church, and I had bilateral club feet when I was born. So I had many, many surgeries through Schreiner's Hospital growing up. And I spent a lot of time in front of the television. Uh my mother was an addict, uh, my parents were divorced, and my sister and I spent a lot of time by ourselves. And so I loved, I loved watching TV, and I loved commercials, which I think I didn't say this before, but the business I was in before was advertising and marketing. Oh wow. So I worked for a large agency uh here in the Southeast for for about before I went back to seminary. And and so I loved commercials. I I could sing every jingle there there was, and and I just loved 70s TV. I still do. I don't I don't well I take that back. We've gotten hooked on the um on the new Matlock. We love we love that show, but um other than that, I pretty much watch YouTube and old old TV shows when I'm watching when I get to watch television, but it became a friend to me, you know, and it's a sad thing in some ways. It became you know, television became a my babysitter and my guardian. But God used it. I talk a little bit in the book about how he used that to get me ready for what he called me to do. So it was fun. So the best 70s commercial jingle of all time. Oh gosh. And and I worked with I worked with the the guy who wrote it. Um my baloney has a first name, it's O-S-C-A-R. Yeah, I think that's the best one of all time. There's a great story behind it. And he was getting toward retirement when he was with our creative, he was the head of our creative department, and and he uh in the early 70s helped help write that jingle for Oscar Meyer. Oh, that's awesome. And they and they were told when they when the the marketing director at Oscar Meyer heard it for the first time, he said, that's ridiculous. I'm not even gonna show the team that. Oh yeah. That's right. So let's uh let's address this musical heresy. You said there has been no good music after 1989. As a musician, teacher, and a person with ears, I'm gonna need you to defend this outrageous claim. What happened in 1990 that apparently ended civilization? You know, I am I my if I'm not listening to Praise and Worship, which I love praise and worship music, and I and I love old hymns too. I do love old hymns and listen to those in my car. Um, and your son has he's he's trying to get me into these hymn sings, and he's trying that I want to go to too, because I know I'd love it. But I I love the 70s. I I my I I waste a lot of money on satellite radio because I pay for satellite radio, but I only listen to yacht rock pretty much. And and I just love that music. And I think it's again because I spent a lot of time by myself as a kid. And so I listened to the radio, and those were the songs when I was growing up, and and then the other TV shows. And I kid uh my kids also get a little myth with me when I say that. So listen, you guys don't even know what real music is, and I know there's still good music, but um, I just I really if I have to choose, I'm gonna be listening to something from the 70s. Well, I hope you'll take a minute to listen to my album. It wasn't in the 1970s. I would love to listen to it, and I'm sure it's great. So I I just needed to know are we blaming synthesizers, drum machines, hair metal fatigue, or just the loss of a good theme song? You know, that's you know, I think it's like anything, and you'll you'll being a music person, you'll understand what I'm saying. I think it's just nostalgic. I think the nostalgia that we have um from music of our of our young younger years is always just what draws us. There is actually a study out why why we tend to gravitate towards certain era of music. Uh and it it's totally psychological why we uh why we do that. You you and I, before we started the show today, you were telling me about a friend of yours who was atheist. And and what I I love to talk to atheists. I love it. I love those conversations because uh it's just one, you learn a lot, and two, I'm fascinated with how they see the world without God, because there are two ways that I know God is real, there are lots of ways, but here are two. First, when I walk outside this this building today and look around, there is a God, a a creative God, an intelligent creator. I know that for sure, but music is the other. There's no way music just happened that had to come from an intelligent creator. And I think both of those things are are good evidence that that we there's something else out there and God is real. Oh, yeah. So you said one song you never skip is anything by Captain and Tennil. All right, so you got to defend Captain and Tennil to a 25-year-old who has never heard of them. Well, all right, so the first the first song I would let them hear is Muskrat Love because the of the synthesizers that are used in it, because it really it's a very creative uh use of synthesizers. Um, but also love will keep us together. I think Tony Tanil um has one of the most amazing abilities to harmonize of of anybody I've ever heard. And and again, I love that music. And then when Natalie and I were dating, we used to drive around with that cassette tape in the in the car. And anytime the the Captain Tanil come on, everything stops and we turn it up loud. But but trying to talk a young person into it. Now, my children they know more about 70s music than they probably normally would because they grew up riding in the car with me. But I would just say that one, um, the reason the reason I think it's important is because those songs tell a story. There's actually a plot to a lot of those songs. They're not just a a word, what I call a word salad, like a lot of music here today, and that it actually makes you feel good when you hear it. It lifts your spirits. And and I think that's the only thing I could say to help them understand why they would enjoy it. Well, if you had to preach a sermon using only a Captain and Tonil song title, which one would it be? It would definitely be Love Will Keep Us Together. I think that's a Jesus song if there ever was. Well, you just need to make a series out of it. All right, let's switch some gears. This is the quick fire round. We do it every episode. You said in uh you said that you thrive on surprise questions, hit me. So here we go. Famous last words, my friend. All right, first thing that comes to your head. All right, print Bible or Bible app? Print Bible for sure. Okay, sermon prep daily chunks all week or Saturday marathon panic with the Holy Spirit. Oh, daily chunks. I would I would lose sleep if I wasn't ready on by Saturday. Pulpit or coffee shop? Where does the most real ministry happen? Oh gosh, coffee shops for sure. And that's where I write most of my sermons, actually, too. That's awesome. Yeah. Sunday afternoon nap. Yes, no, or I would, but there's a meeting. I I have since I have been a child, I've been way too high strung to sleep when it's daylight. I do not like sleeping during the day. I sleep at night and usually it's much too late that I get to bed. Oh goodness. Well, I tell you, there is nothing like a Sunday nap for me. Yeah. All right. Best 70s sitcom, All in the Family, Mash, the Brady Bunch or a Writing Candidate. Oh gosh, that's a that's a hard one. But I think, all right, the Brady Bunch was pretty mindless, but I wanted to live in that family so bad when I was a kid that I wanted to be, I wanted to be the seventh kid, and so I loved it. But I'm telling you, All in the Family, um, it was an amazing show for its time. And and I tell I do tell young people, if you want to know what it was like, right on the edge up to the 80s, watch All in the Family, because Archie Bunker is he is representative of what America was before that that era went out. I mean, he was a he was a good representation because a lot of people that didn't say it, they really believed what he was saying. Yeah, well, and and they broke a lot of barriers. Oh my, they sure did. They sure did. So must most underrated book of the Bible. I think probably I would say first, I'd say first and second Peter. And I've always been amazed that we don't hear more sermons from First and Second Peter because there's just a lot of gold in 1st and 2nd Peter. And if I had to, and even I, you know, I'm guilty of not preaching a lot of sermons from Peter. But one of the things, one of the things that, and there's so much, I mean Peter's chock full, but one of the things that I think about so often, Heather, is that chronological time means nothing to God. You know, as human beings, we think, because people say, you know, people have been saying Jesus is going to come back since my great-grandparents were around. And and I say, yeah, but when you say that, you think chronological time means something to God. It doesn't. Peter said a thousand years is like a day. So Jesus was only resurrected a few days ago in God's time. So I just think that those two, I wish there were more sermons on first and second Peter. I think it's underrated. So if your funeral had a walk-in song, what would it be? Oh gosh. Happy days are here again because I I don't I don't want to die tonight, but I tell you what, I'm looking forward to heaven because I know that that's my true home, Heather. And because I did grow up with a lot of uh emotional pain around my childhood and my parents, um I learned pretty quickly that my Christian family is my true family, and I can't wait to be in heaven with all of them. What 70s TV character would have made the best church committee chair? Oh gosh, that is a great question. Um probably Bob Newhart. Oh my goodness. Because he had a sense of humor, but he also uh was had it was dry, and all the decisions he made were extremely practical. I really I like Bob Newhart. I love that um clip of him that was circulated for a while where he was like trying to help the guy and he just like stopped, you know. That would that's that's hilarious. Yeah, yeah. Uh okay. If if every church meeting had a theme song, what song should play when the meeting has gone 30 minutes too long? Oh gosh, that is such a good question. Um, all right, what can I say and not get in trouble? That's probably that's probably the um, you know, I gosh, what what would that be, that theme? Because most of them do go too long, um, almost always. And I would say, um, gosh, I I don't know. I really don't know. I think that's a good thing. A Jeopardy theme song. Maybe just any of it, maybe any of those game show uh thing, diddies, but yeah. All right, what is one thing people think is spiritual maturity, but really is just stubbornness wearing a cardigan? Well, it's it's exactly what you said earlier. I loved it when you said this, because we think our way is the way because we've done it this way forever and ever and ever. Even if it doesn't work, it still feels safe. And so I think that that's that's one of the things that that I think, and and we and we make it look so good, you know, why why wouldn't we do this? It's it's always, we've always done it this way. And and I have a a coach that I worked with for a lot of years, guy named Craig Roberts, and and and he used to say, you know, James, the problem with the church, because he was in business too, uh, before he was a coach and and still in business, but he said, you know, the the church uh in the business world, if you do A to get B and you don't get B, then A's got to change because somebody's gonna lose their job or somebody's gonna lose some money. So you got to change A if you're not getting B. He said, in the church world, if you're doing A to get B and A's not working, we just do A harder, which makes no sense. And I think that that's probably the biggest thing that we and well, we dress it up and make it look really good. Yeah, yeah. Well, last one, finish this sentence. The church gets healthier when the church gets healthier when we understand scripture and when we live out the precepts of that Jesus taught us. And and I think the the the main precept, and we know it was important because that's what he said to us right before he left us go into all the world and preach the gospel, baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, the Great Commission. If we take the Great Commission seriously, we will have healthy churches. Well, as we come into this home stretch, I want to speak directly to two people listening right now. I I want you to speak right to them. Okay. The first is the listener who has been chewed up by church. Maybe they came up through a tradition that hurt them. Maybe they led a church and it broke them, maybe they showed up faithful for years and somewhere along the way stopped feeling seen. What do you want to say to that person? The first thing I'll say is I'm sorry, and I apologize on behalf of the church. Um one of the one of the quotes that I lead off one of my um, well, actually, I think it's the last chapter of my book with, um, is the church is the only institution in the world that shoots and buries its wounded. And that's true. We don't mean to be that cruel, but we have been. And we've hurt many more people than we've helped sometimes, I'm afraid. And and so the first thing I would say is is I'm sorry. Um secondly, I would say that uh the heart of most people who hurt you was was good, but misled. I think the church is full of a lot of good people who have just kind of been misled about what church really is and and should be. And so I I think that it's important that if you've been hurt by the church to understand that those are not bad people for the most part. Now, there were some bad people probably in some of those situations, but what I find mostly is that that people were hurt by good people who meant well, and we need to really work on that in the church. Well, the second person is the listener who is doing all the right things, showing up, serving, working, leading, giving, helping, producing, holding everyone else together, and they are tired. They have started to believe their value lives in their output. What do they need to hear from you today? Thanks, but no thanks. And what I mean by that is someone has taught you that it all depends on you. Someone has taught you that um works-based theology is is the truth. And and it's because the enemy loves works-based theology because it keeps our heart away from Christ. And I would say thank you that because you are dedicated, you are committed, and I know that much of what you do is because you love the church. But I would say don't focus so much on doing, focus on being. That we get closest to Jesus when we understand that we are to be and not do. Because when we are really being Heather, I believe that Jesus will show us the right things to do instead of us having to check check our checklist, which a lot of Christians get into that. So let's make this really practical. Someone's listening and they're realizing that I have not been present, I have been busy, reactive, distracted, maybe even a little numb. What is something today that can help a leader become more present this week? Yeah. I think that I don't I don't know what I would do without the psalms. I I I try to read at least a portion of a psalm every day. And I either do it on my phone, you ask me, because I do use I do use Bible-based, I use a Bible apps, but I I'd rather have hold a book in my hand. Um but I would say read the Psalms. The Psalms I believe help us understand more than any other book in the Bible that it's okay that we're human, just so we're calling out to Jesus for help. And and it gives me a lot of peace. When I've I found that in that interim time when I had left my last place and was trying to figure out where I was going to go next, and that was about a three-month period. Um the psalms kept kept me going because there were some days that I felt like a total failure. And I would open the Psalms and I'd say, Here was King David, who made a lot of bad mistakes, but he was a man after God's own heart, and he never tried to act like he was something that he wasn't. Not only was he a great leader, not only did he love God with all of his heart, but he wasn't afraid to say, I'm a pretty messed up person some days, and I need a savior. And so I would say that that is the that is the piece of advice that I can give anyone who's struggling or feeling. So as you look at the church right now, not just grace resurrection, but the wider church, let's leave with some hope here. What is giving you hope? Where are you seeing signs of renewal? What do you think God is inviting his people back to? I mean, that let's let's leave on some hope today. Yeah, you know, when I this church that I'm serving right now was planted almost two years before I came in the picture. Um there uh Randy Michler, who had come out of retirement, was leading them along with two two other retired pastors. And they didn't know that they were starting a church. They just thought they were getting together and praying together and because they started out with like 20-something people and they were just reading the Bible together and praying and they'd sing a little and and it just grew and grew and grew and till you know Randy said, You guys, you guys need to look for a full-time pastor. We're all retired, we're not interested in coming out of retirement full-time. And so I remember talking with this group of people, and I said to them, If you don't hire me, I'm Natalie and I are gonna move to Georgia from Kentucky and and be a part of this. And and I say in the book, I was kind of kidding, you know, sort of kidding, but not really, that's in some ways, because I just thought when when I did say yes to to becoming their pastor, my first prayer was, God, please don't let me mess this up because it is the purest thing I've ever been a har part of. Now, we are a church full of human beings, and there are a lot of different personalities, and there are some folks in our church who have really been hurt, and and they they still try to protect themselves because of that. And so I I try to be really sensitive to that. But I'm serving a group of people right now who really understand what it means to try to move towards something that looks more like Christ. Now, I'm not saying we get it right every day, I'm not saying we get it right every Sunday because again, we're human, but we are we are so aware in this congregation right now of the ways that we do not want to do church. And I've never been in a situation like that. I've always been in churches that I listen, I serve some of the best churches in the state of Kentucky. I had great people that I loved and felt just humbled to be their pastor, and that's the truth. But yet, almost everywhere I was, we were always trying to justify the way we were doing it. And and in this situation, they're not trying to justify, they're asking me, how do we do this biblically? And sometimes it means doing some things that we're not always comfortable with because it's outside the norm, but it's biblical. And so right now, I'm I'm thankful to be with a group of people who are trying to do this thing in a biblical way in ways that I've never experienced before. Well, James, this has been such a rich conversation. And what I keep coming back to is that presence is not a small thing. It is not soft, it is not passive, it is not just being nice or available. Presence is one of the deepest forms of leadership. To be present is to notice, to listen, to see the person and not the problem, to care about the soul, not just the system, to serve the mission without losing the people, to lead without hiding behind the title. And yes, for pastors, that matters deeply, but it matters for all of us. It matters in churches, businesses, classrooms, homes, friendships, anywhere people are entrusted to our care. And for those of us who follow Jesus, this is not just a leadership strategy. It is the way of Christ. He saw people, he stopped for people, he noticed the overlooked, he touched the untouchable, he listened, he asked questions, he told the truth, he moved with purpose, but he was never too important to be interrupted by love. That is leadership, that is ministry, that is the invitation. James's book is the present pastor, and whether you are a pastor, church leader, business owner, teacher, parent, or simply someone who wants to live with more intention and love, there is wisdom here. You can connect with James on Facebook and Instagram at rev.jamesiv, and you can find him at Grace Resurrection Methodist Church in Marietta, Georgia. James, thank you for reminding us that God is not looking for a performance and that he's after the person, the tired person, the whole person, the faithful person, the becoming person. Thank you, Heather. This has been so wonderful. Thank you so much. And to everyone listening, I hope today's conversation gives you permission to slow down, look someone in the eye, return to what matters, and remember that the people in front of you are not interruptions to the mission. They are the mission. Hey, thanks for joining us today on the Heather Patero Show. Stay creative, live on purpose, and this week, don't just show up, be present. You've been listening to the Heather Patero Show, produced by Heather Patero Studios. Connect with us on Facebook or Instagram or visit Heatherpatero.com. Until next time, stay creative and live on purpose.